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Terra

[Announcement] McDankus' Fiasco

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On 5/29/2019 at 4:54 PM, Terra said:

This is still being discussed! I assure everyone it has not just been forgotten about!

Could we get something more than 'it is being discussed'? All the evidence available to us (IE: none) suggests this has been abandoned.

Doubly so when you consider Elle has dropped off the radar almost completely.

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I can agree with Dascs statement tbh. It's been 3 and a half weeks since the ban and we've heard zilch from staff aside from being told "It's still being discussed". It's frustrating because I don't think anyone really understands why it's taking so long to actually reach a viable conclusion. The only thing it tells us is what dasc said, that it's basically being abandoned and/or kept in the dark in the hopes people forget about it.

Personally I'd rather not have to wait a month/month and a half to then be told "nah you're still banned for 3 months sorry" because at that point what's the point in even sticking around when staff seem to be handling the situation so poorly? If Elle can't commit to handling this situation, then make a decision without him. From what I've heard he's been mostly absent due to IRL stuff and internet. Whilst I do understand IRL is more important, get someone else to replace the Head Keeper given it's having an impact not just on this situation, but the backlog of 30+ tickets that can't be handled because the Head Keeper ain't available. 

I'm not going to sit here for months just to hear a verdict which could have been made easily in a matter of hours. Yes, Varen has trouble getting words out or wording things, but that's why Terra is there. Varen doesn't need someone to hold his hand when he needs to make decisions. We've already seen that before. It's disappointing to see a staff team conduct a situation so dysfunctional and keeping so many people in the dark. Even Terras responses have been less than helpful. Telling us it's "being discussed" means little in the long run when there is no action being taken. 

At this point I'd politely ask staff to make a decision on whether my ban will be lifted/prolonged or kept permanent. Because at least that way I can decide whether to stay or leave tbh because at this point it's proving tiresome just to deal with it.  

For a server with such a small playerbase that is dwindling by the days due to staffs lack of handling and their complete disconnection with their playerbase, you'd think averting drama like this would be a priority really. 

Edited by McDankus
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Staff answer to this please, its getting tiresome and frankly its putting a lot of RP on the backburner on the premise that Dragor -might- come back.

Answer now please

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A more clear guideline on punishments has been made public a while ago, and when I go by what's written there and what I personally know of McDankus' ban, it's long overdue that he gets unbanned.

As far as I am aware, the reason for his ban was that he had a bad day, said some bad things during a heated argument. It happens, we are all human, we all get passionate about our opinions every now and then. This is not the first time I see someone flipping a table, but it's the first time I see someone getting slapped a 3 months ban on it. A lot of people have chimed in, voicing their opinion that the harshness of this punishment is over the top for what harm was actually done. Saying that a final decision can't be made because Elle is unavailable at the moment feels like an excuse at this point. We have all been patient enough.

 

I'm only a community member with a subjective opinion, but here is my advise:

Unban him and end this drama-train. The guy's tongue slipped, it happens. We've had people that multi-accounted to abuse the system receive less of a punishment.

Edited by foogleman

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2 hours ago, foogleman said:

... saying that a final decision can't be made because Elle is unavailable at the moment feels like a very poor excuse at this point, as well. We have all been patient enough.

It slaps of cowardice that Elle has magically disappeared because of this (allegedly due to being out of work) 

The screenshot are there, plenty of people were online, and danks will have access to what was said during the altercation in PM's. Elle is not the one who was banned here (sadly) it was dankus.

For elle to conveniently disappear at this point smells of staff trying to pull a loophole where by Elle appears either at the end of the 3 month ban or damn close to it. Its coming up to 1/3rd of the ban now and this is nothing short of being daft. 

It'll take less than five minutes to comment on here by Elle and I keep seeing him pop up on discord. Likely the US discord / forum equivilant of putting your head above the ramparts to see if that sniper is still there. 

Not only is this frankly immature display hampering any resolution to this problem, it also means Elle is shirking in his duties as Head storyteller and there being outstanding tickets because of it (I partly blame elle's inability to delegate for this) 

Sort yourselves out

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19 hours ago, McDankus said:

It's been 3 and a half weeks since the ban and we've heard zilch from staff aside from being told "It's still being discussed".

First of all, not "3 and a half weeks". It's been maybe… 2-3 days over two weeks. So, not three weeks, much less three and a half. As for being told "It's still being discussed", you have multiple times contacted me through Discord PM's, inquiring about the ongoing situation. Each of those times I have told you that it was still being discussed, but the issue was a bit tacky. I also told you that we would be releasing a more specific system to deal with future situations and after that we'd discuss it again. Needless to say, we aren't going to tell everyone how the current situation is unfolding, or what we're waiting on or how things are. You, McDankus, are good to know, but when there's no clear declaration being issued, I am not going to go divulging every single word we've talked about the matter.

 

6 hours ago, foogleman said:

We've had people that multi-accounted to abuse the system who got less of a punishment.

The thing about this is that those players realised their error and went quiet. McDankus, on the other hand, proceeded to try and keep the topic going after being warned to stop, and once he was banned he brought the discussion to PM's. So he escalated the situation, knowingly. Hence why his "punishment" might have been harsher than those.

 

As for Dascombe's entire post (As I feel it is too much to quote it entirely): you are just posting your own assumptions and calling Elle a coward (Personal attacks), even though it's been said many times that he has internet issues that are out of his hands to fix. These assumptions and attacks is what has kept the issue ongoing, and keeps making Staff reluctant to unban Dankus. It -might- not be him telling you to post this, but these sort of actions (Not you posting in his defense, as that's perfectly normal, but the accusations and personal attacks) also have consequences against his image.

 

I do, however, understand the issue that stems from the ticket backlog considering a few of them are for big stuff and without Elle's intervention the other Keepers can't do anything about it. Sadly, it is not I (The Curator) who has word on it. All that I can say about it is that I'll try to get some things going on later on today if Elle's ISP hasn't done their job by then.

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3 hours ago, Terra said:

First of all, not "3 and a half weeks". It's been maybe… 2-3 days over two weeks.

This really doesn't change the fact that staff have given me 0 updates on how long my ban is. Constantly telling me "it's a tricky situation" and all of that isn't helpful. I've asked numerous times for the chance to sit down with staff and MATURELY discuss the situation, yet it seems to be staff that aren't acting mature and instead hiding from the situation or refusing to give actual updates on what is happening? Yes, a system has been put in place for punishment, but you've still said absolutely nothing in regards to where I fall within the bracket, which does lead me to believe staff are simply using this as a way to repair any leaks in their little boat and to keep paddling. This leads me to the next point.

3 hours ago, Terra said:

Needless to say, we aren't going to tell everyone how the current situation is unfolding, or what we're waiting on or how things are. 

This to me simply states that staff aren't going to give clarity or transparency to their playerbase about a particular situation. To me that sounds extremely counter-intuitive and practically against the concerns of players that have spoken in this chat. The lack of transparency, especially in this particular manner, is what gripes people about staffs handling. 90% of what you're doing is in the dark, with little to no updates other than telling people it is being "discussed" about, which even then has no solid substance for people to go on. To turn around to people and say this is no better than to go "if you don't like it, leave". 

3 hours ago, Terra said:

The thing about this is that those players realised their error and went quiet. McDankus, on the other hand, proceeded to try and keep the topic going after being warned to stop, and once he was banned he brought the discussion to PM's. So he escalated the situation, knowingly. Hence why his "punishment" might have been harsher than those.

Let's be real, because I have the PMs to prove otherwise if you try to tell me this isn't the case. But the original ban -WAS- 3 days for the spat in LFRP. It seems people are getting the wrong picture because that's not the reason I was banned for. You, yourself, told me that Varen was going to consider a ban because of me calling Elle a petulant child. A perma. Over such a minuscule insult. Yes, I've admitted I didn't need to insult them, but the insult is no different than a staff member talking down to a player and calling them immature or childish. After that I tried to reason with Varen, albeit heated due to my anger. Regardless of the fact, -YOU- told me yet again that Varen and Elle were intending to ban me for other stuff, and I had to hear from Lang that they were considering throwing other transgressions ontop of my sentence:

1) Accusations of insulting staff members.

2) Spreading lies about other players in whispers, creating hurtful rumors.

3) Metagaming.

Yet in the past no one from staff has ever approached me on the subject, nor have I been warned, nor has anything been properly logged. The fact that no proof was given to me on how staff has the right to add this to my sentence (no screens, no proof of any of the 3 above) leads me to believe that this was simply an excuse to prolong the ban or even justify the perma further. Yet the fact that, as people keep telling you, no one from staff has come forward with any solid proof against me aside from what lead to the 3 day ban, simply tells us that the image seems like you're trying to hide and wait for it to go away.

This isn't a personal attack on anyone, I'm trying to tell you what you're doing wrong and why people aren't happy with staff and how you conduct yourself. I will say this much, If proof needs to be given in this thread to justify anything, I will do it. At this point if staff won't provide transparency with people, I'll be more than happy to with what I've got. 

3 hours ago, Terra said:

As for Dascombe's entire post (As I feel it is too much to quote it entirely): you are just posting your own assumptions and calling Elle a coward (Personal attacks), even though it's been said many times that he has internet issues that are out of his hands to fix. These assumptions and attacks is what has kept the issue ongoing, and keeps making Staff reluctant to unban Dankus. It -might- not be him telling you to post this, but these sort of actions (Not you posting in his defense, as that's perfectly normal, but the accusations and personal attacks) also have consequences against his image.

 Whilst you can visualize Dascs response as a personal attack or not (although calling someone a coward is such a small insult it shouldn't even be considered an attack tbh), if he can answer discord tickets when he has the internet, then he can spend the time to chip in on this situation with staff. You don't just tell people "I'm unable to handle this ban because of my internet, but I'll still answer tickets with what internet I have" just sounds fishy to me. But that's not the worst of your response. Everything highlighted in red, is essentially an effort of emotional blackmail. Indirect or not. To tell people "what you're saying is going to stop this person from being unbanned" is downright wrong to even do so. Why should -I- be judged because other people are speaking against staff members and giving criticisms. Don't use the uproar of community members as a way to shelter yourself from the issue pertaining my ban. It's wrong against me for one, because I've been more than respectful for the most part since the ban.

Don't smear one person with a brush of paint because you want to smear others with it. The fact that you're saying that people are wrong for accusing staff members of things, yet staff have blatantly gone ahead and accused me of things I've allegedly done without proof? That's what an accusation is, no? Claiming someone has done something wrong? So who really is in the wrong? Players for speaking out accusing staff members of bias/cowardice etc, or the staff members who are also accusing a player of the above points mentioned with little proof to bring to the table?

Not ONCE did you tell me that the assumptions and "attacks" were what was keeping the issue ongoing. So whether you're saying this in an attempt to force people into being silent because it'll get me into a worse situation, or whether you're just blatantly lying to my face, is yet to be seen. But it seems to me, for the most part, that staff don't really have much of an idea on what they're doing with this situation. And the lack of productivity towards the solution of my dilemma for the most part, partnered with the fact that we've seen staff recently show complete lack of respect for the players as I was banned for, just goes to show either you're all not on the same page, or you're just being childish.

I'll again, offer staff the chance to talk to me maturely over PMs to reach a viable conclusion. But I'm tired of being lied to directly to my face, or be involved in some cover up because some staff members wanted to make things personal and then hide away when the backlash became too much. 

Edit:

Also going to throw this here for anyone who wants to know the definition of a personal attack:

bedb010bd6004be13b9a0168cd5f6c93.png

Please stop taking every little mean word said by someone as personal. It really isn't. 

Edited by McDankus
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Holy freakin' super crap.

Is this what the server has devolved into? Actually wait scratch that, maybe it's always been that way. I know from my previous experience it's always been "what we say go" and "my way or the highway" here. It's a carry over from Legacy and Prologue.

 

Let's break this down from what I can see.
>Player sees a ton of NPCs, does some head math and wonders just how a group can afford all these NPCs with the way NPC pricing is
>A staff member who is notorious for having a one-track mind says "we dont owe you an explanation", which basically means fuck off
>this irks the player, who pushes the question and tries to get transparency
>at some point, the staff slapped the player with a 72 hour ban, because he can
>he takes the issue to discord, both Elle and Varen seemingly tell him to fuck off "politely"
>eventually he gets booted from discord and handed a permaban, but then its retconned to a 3 month ban

 

While McDankus can have some colorful language, that doesn't excuse the Staff's response. If you can't handle a few cuss words and banter, maybe you shouldn't be on the internet?

 

To me this sounds like an escalated situation where the staff has an agenda they want to see, and when someone questions said agenda they basically try to silence the player. It's quite obvious the Staff in question don't want to explain how Haven can afford over a hundred NPCs. Because they can't, because they are in bed with the Haven players and are too comfy to step-up. Though this is less a Varen issue and more an issue with a certain individual that just so happens to be Head Keeper.

 

Instead of giving a reason why haven can afford the salary of all the NPCs, or just admitting the truth, you tried to silence someone. You know what this sounds like?

 

This sounds like the fucking Bioware and Bethesda forums. Just STOP, before you become Stanry Woo.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Terra said:

First of all, not "3 and a half weeks". It's been maybe… 2-3 days over two weeks. So, not three weeks, much less three and a half.

2-3 days over two weeks? Dankus was banned on the 16th of May. Today is the 3rd of June. That's 18 days in total. Admittedly three and a half (which is what I was told so my source is wrong for which I apologize) is incorrect but 2-3 days over the course of two weeks, what nonsense is that? I assume this is just a verbal hiccup?

As for being told "It's still being discussed", you have multiple times contacted me through Discord PM's, inquiring about the ongoing situation. Each of those times I have told you that it was still being discussed, but the issue was a bit tacky. I also told you that we would be releasing a more specific system to deal with future situations and after that we'd discuss it again. Needless to say, we aren't going to tell everyone how the current situation is unfolding, or what we're waiting on or how things are. You, McDankus, are good to know, but when there's no clear declaration being issued, I am not going to go divulging every single word we've talked about the matter.

 

The thing about this is that those players realised their error and went quiet. McDankus, on the other hand, proceeded to try and keep the topic going after being warned to stop, and once he was banned he brought the discussion to PM's. So he escalated the situation, knowingly. Hence why his "punishment" might have been harsher than those.

Indeed his punishment -was- harsher. He continued and got a 72hr ban. That should have been the end of it as we have all said repeatedly. He even accepts the 72hr ban willingly and honestly this could have -all- been avoided had (and i'll mention this again as you've clearly forgotten) Elle not taken it upon himself to inflate his ego and chose to permanantly ban Dankus rather than FOLLOW THE RULES STATED ON THE FORUM AND BLOCK HIM.

 

As for Dascombe's entire post (As I feel it is too much to quote it entirely): you are just posting your own assumptions and calling Elle a coward (Personal attacks), even though it's been said many times that he has internet issues that are out of his hands to fix. These assumptions and attacks is what has kept the issue ongoing, and keeps making Staff reluctant to unban Dankus. It -might- not be him telling you to post this, but these sort of actions (Not you posting in his defense, as that's perfectly normal, but the accusations and personal attacks) also have consequences against his image.

Many times? This is literally the first i've heard of it. Each time i've asked where Elle is i've got back absolute silence, so thank you for -finally- informing us as to where the head keeper is. These assumptions keep coming because, frankly, it looks like Elle is hiding. Genuinely this is the first time I have actually heard -ANYTHING- about what's happening regarding Elle's response and you are the first in a week and a half to answer it. Also if staff are basing Dankus' ban on what other people say and do in the community then frankly that is -wrong-. It is utterly and contemptibly wrong. What would you say if the same was the other way round? I very much doubt anything would come of it if the tables were turned. 

 

I do, however, understand the issue that stems from the ticket backlog considering a few of them are for big stuff and without Elle's intervention the other Keepers can't do anything about it. Sadly, it is not I (The Curator) who has word on it. All that I can say about it is that I'll try to get some things going on later on today if Elle's ISP hasn't done their job by then.

As i've stipulated in quite a few of my tickets which have been Elle'd (new verb) these are not complex or drastic things and frankly few of them have anything to do with Elle. What's strange is the absoluteness of it, in this day and age where being able to access the internet isn't too drastic even for a total of two minutes we haven't even had a ping on discord announcements from Elle saying "Sorry guys, internet down, dunno when i'm back, will reply when stuff's sorted IRL" or a single forum post despite him being able to pop onto discord. I just don't buy it really.

 

2 hours ago, Caid said:

Holy freakin' super crap.

Is this what the server has devolved into? Actually wait scratch that, maybe it's always been that way. I know from my previous experience it's always been "what we say go" and "my way or the highway" here. It's a carry over from Legacy and Prologue.

 

Let's break this down from what I can see.
>Player sees a ton of NPCs, does some head math and wonders just how a group can afford all these NPCs with the way NPC pricing is. Head math was indeed done. I've done the actual math and its visible in an actual public thread. Awaiting Elle's return to see how he justifies it.
>A staff member who is notorious for having a one-track mind says "we dont owe you an explanation", which basically means fuck off
>this irks the player, who pushes the question and tries to get transparency
>at some point, the staff slapped the player with a 72 hour ban, because he can. As Dankus, I, and a great many others have said, the 72hr ban was wholly and completely justified. Even I would have had no recourse if I were in the same position. Dankus did something stupid and continued to do so in a public channel after being told to stop. 72hr ban was fair game there.
>he takes the issue to discord, both Elle and Varen seemingly tell him to fuck off "politely"
>eventually he gets booted from discord and handed a permaban, but then its retconned to a 3 month ban. Incorrect. He is handed a ban from Discord (justifiable, i'm on a similar thing though I was given no choice in it really)

 

While McDankus can have some colorful language, that doesn't excuse the Staff's response. If you can't handle a few cuss words and banter, maybe you shouldn't be on the internet?

 

To me this sounds like an escalated situation where the staff has an agenda they want to see, and when someone questions said agenda they basically try to silence the player. It's quite obvious the Staff in question don't want to explain how Haven can afford over a hundred NPCs. Yes, over 100 NPCs. Only 83 of those are combatants and the rest are civilians / utility NPCs. Because they can't, because they are in bed with the Haven players and are too comfy to step-up. Though this is less a Varen issue and more an issue with a certain individual that just so happens to be Head Keeper.

 

Instead of giving a reason why haven can afford the salary of all the NPCs, or just admitting the truth, you tried to silence someone. You know what this sounds like?

 

This sounds like the fucking Bioware and Bethesda forums. Just STOP, before you become Stanry Woo.

 

 

 

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'Sup boys, your favorite troll over here. As a preface to this post, no matter how long it might be, I'd like to note that I have no prefference towards either party as I've, naturally, argued with both over my course of RP.

Might I just point out the fact that someone with the rank of 'HEAD Keeper' has not at all suffered any reprimand from their higher-ups for blowing off a player with "If you don't like it, there's an uninstall button."?

I don't know guys, but blowing that statement (from a HEAD Keeper, might I remind) off as a 'classic catchphrase' and then declaring a perma (yes, it's a 3 month now) ban upon the person who responded practically in very much the same tone (reminder: passive agressive remarks are still agressive) seems pretty unfair. 

The way I see it, this whole 'power coming to someone's head' is a pretty Dawnforge move and it's no wonder that this has become an issue. I'd recommend really putting this situation under closer scrutiny and taking a look at that town. Not only is a 3 months ban for something so small way too much, but it feels like an attempt to hush up any further inquiry into this situation with the hypothetical mushroom cloud of a ban hanging over the head of anyone who would dare to question it.

I dunno, guys, but  I wouldn't really want to have a guy who blows someone off in a rather passive-agressive manner on my staff team, seems like a bad image and all. But I guess this whole 'My way or the high way' attitude doesn't belong to Dawnforge only. 

 

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Clearly, there must be more to Dankus' ban than him saying a few bad words to Elle.

Clearly, he must have done worse things to warrant a 3 months ban.

If only we knew the extent of his failings.

But from what I have gathered, it seems the only way Dankus can redeem himself in the eyes of staff is, by keeping his mouth shut and letting this discussion die. I believe that is the only way to absolution. Staff wants proof that Dankus has learned his lesson and will be a good christian in the future. The more he keeps kicking and screaming, the more it tells staff that he isn't quite there yet on his way to being a good community member.

 

Disclaimer: I may be wrong. This is me guessing. Please be merciful with me, because guesswork is all people outside staff chat have nowadays.

Edited by foogleman

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On 6/4/2019 at 6:04 AM, foogleman said:

Clearly, there must be more to Dankus' ban than him saying a few bad words to Elle.

Clearly, he must have done worse things to warrant a 3 months ban.

If only we knew the extent of his failings.

But from what I have gathered, it seems the only way Dankus can redeem himself in the eyes of staff is, by keeping his mouth shut and letting this discussion die. I believe that is the only way to absolution. Staff wants proof that Dankus has learned his lesson and will be a good christian in the future. The more he keeps kicking and screaming, the more it tells staff that he isn't quite there yet on his way to being a good community member.

 

Disclaimer: I may be wrong. This is me guessing. Please be merciful with me, because guesswork is all people outside staff chat have nowadays.

Quite seems like it's one more of those power trip things if you're right, to be honest. I give the benefit of the doubt. Besides, even if it was more than him saying a few bad words, it doesn't seem like any of that was outlined in the reasoning for his ban, and therefore, we can't really work with what wasn't given to us. That'd be even worse, since it would mean that the 'staff team' lied to their community in a public annoucement. 

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