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[Announcement] McDankus' Fiasco

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Hello. It is I, the Curator, with a long overdue post. I do hope you all can forgive my tardiness, for I write this making use of the universities' internet as I do not currently have at my home. Without further ado, let us dip into it.

As for the title, it is just how I have been naming the entire situation, and it is in no way meant to depreciate any part of it.

Needless to say, every person has an individual opinion on the matter, but what follows is the… consensus… reached by staff.

 

McDankus' Fiasco - Official Staff Stance

The individual known as McDankus, player behind the character "Dragor Bloodfury", Warlord of the Doldrums Horde, has been banned from the server for three months, after which he can appeal to be unbanned, and will be talked to, to see if he has reflected upon the actions which brought this unto himself.

Next, we will review parts of the rules which he has broken. These all can be found in the proper post under "Server Information", in the forums, under the name of "Rules and Regulations", though we will do so by going to the end of it, where it directly states "Do's and Don'ts", in order to prevent what may constitute as different "headcanons", or way to perceive things.

  • "Be respectful to one another".
  • "Do not cross OOC and IC"
  • "Do not exacerbate OOC Drama or willfully start it"
  • "Keep discussion civil"

Now, to breach these points all at one, if we may, instead of going at them one by one. McDankus first expressed his doubts about Halfpoint Haven having more than 100+ NPCs. He pressed for an OOC clarification, at which point Elle stated classic catchphrases such as "You are not owed an OOC explanation." or "If you don't like it, there's an uninstall button."

After this, the discussion kept getting less and less civil (With elements being hostile towards non-staff that was using the entire topic to joke about, even) , so Elle issued a warning: "Stop the topic, or you will be banned for 72h". At this point one/some of the elements decided to, in fact, log out and cool down. Dankus, however, tried to keep talking about it, and was therefore banned for 72h from the game, so he could cool off.

 

Then, instead of deciding to leave for a while to calm himself, he continued to try to argue the thing on Discord. While I can not, as the time of writing this, recall exactly what transpired, he ended up kicked/banned from Discord too, without following the proper punishment procedure. By this point, -I- believe he was still on a 72h ban.

After being kicked out of Discord, however, he brought it to PM's, directly calling Elle a "petulant child". He also sought after Varen in PM's, trying to argue the case.

While, of course, I am not exactly privy to the discussion carried out in these, that (those?) insults and general behaviour is what earned him a permanent ban.

 

Later, due to some elements of staff discussing the situation, the ban was reduced from perma to a 3 month ban which he can appeal at a later date, as it has been stated.

 

From an IC PoV, Dragor seems to be gone off to deal with some private errands. No one knows where to, or for how long. Those with events/storylines/interactions pertaining to Dragor Bloodfury are greatly encouraged to contact the Keepers and try to work a solution, as they are innocents and should not suffer because of the ban.

 

I do hope you can forgive me for not being clearer, as I have written this in the middle of class, and thus can not make use of my full resources to dig up specific quotes and information.

Hopefully, when I get internet again I will be able to update the post and make it better. When I do so, I will make a post further below where I will also explain -what- I have updated.

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As I am sure there is bound to be discussion, please do remember to keep it civil, as we will obviously be looking at it.

I also warn that, while you are free to argue and discuss however you may (And everyone is encouraged to do so, freely), right now the chances of the verdict being modified are slim.

 

Again, do be aware that no one is required or needed to share anyone else's opinion or sentiment.

EDIT: I have also been made ware of the fact that some individuals have also gossiped/talked about the player in question in a manner that could be considered malicious. Please refrain from doing so in public channels: it is against the rules.

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Reason for Dragor's Dissapearance has been updated, as the current one is what the player himself has requested.

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Still though 3 months is too long, that completely ostracizes Dankus from the community, which he has very much positively contributed to.

And then making him beg, after those three months... Weak. 

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I have to agree that the ban is a little too long in my honest opinion. From my standpoint it feels harsh. Secondly on an IC perspective, a lot can happen in three months both OOCly and ICly in the Shores, so him returning after three months would make him feel out of place and would discourage him from wanting to come back. If I were to give my opinion. I think he should be able to appeal in like one month maybe.

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I was taught to always treat others, as you yourself would like to be treated. It's a pretty common lesson in fact, I imagine Elle was taught it too. 

"You are not owed an OOC explanation." or "If you don't like it, there's an uninstall button." 

That is a disrespect shown by Elle to Dankus, in my opinion at this moment Elle welcomed any disrespect (probably knowingly.. I mean Bloodfury it's in the title.) that came from Dankus.

This is not a good enough reason for a permanent ban.

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The only thing I don't like is that there weren't any proper warnings given. Yes people can be dicks, but why let things escalate to the point of a 3 month ban straight away? Warnings are the perfect solution to give people a chance to change their behaviour, plus you have an actual history you can point to when dishing out the serious ban hammer. And I'm talking actual official warnings that are logged with screenshots on a person's file (preferably a publically accessible file), not a single message in an OOC chat in-game. 

It would avoid big drama, either because the offending player changes their behaviour or because they keep pushing and get banned, at which point you can say "well we did warn him, just look at these logs; he already had 3 chances to change but didn't". Nobody would kick up a fuss about that, it would seem fair. Instead you're left with this; where a big dramatic statement has to be made and players are up in arms with disagreement.

Honestly I would suggest letting Frankie return with a final strike official warning; if he gets rude again he's out. 

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Firstly let me say that I was not online that night but I've been following what has happened. 

It seems to me like both parties are to blame, statements like "there's an uninstall button." sound really unprofessional and are bound to provoke players. It's easy to bait people into a heated discussion and then wave your authority to depict them however you want. Imo both parties acted irrationally and the permanent ban seems part of those irrational decisions.
I've also known Dragor for a while and he was the reason I joined this server so I'm trying not to be biased. But while looking into this debacle I noticed he's been on Shores for some time and I feel it's unproductive and a waste to over-punish a frequent RPer (and a good one at that) for such an indecisive situation. 

 

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Hi guys.

 

Before I start this essay (yes, it sadly has to come to that) I would like to state a couple things for the record before I jump into this:

Firstly I write this as one of the people who possibly (others are welcome to contradict me here) knows Dragor / McDankus the longest even prior to him having even created Dragor Bloodfury so what I write in terms of him as a player I write from experience of having seen him developed as a person and an RPer going as far back as earlier servers such as Prologue and the various phases that followed. This may constitute as having bias towards him or possibly even against him, i'll leave you guys to be the judge of that.

Secondly I write this also having seen the fracas that occured in the LFRP Channel which incidentally should be re-named and a [Discussion] channel added in the game as literally no-one uses it for its intended and, ironically, metagamey purposes. I have however not seen what happened on discord due to being banned from the majority of discord channels.

Thirdly i'll be avoiding writing about the Haven NPC issue as this is something i've been investigating myself and, honestly, does not relate to the ban but is part of a deeper problem with US which requires its own thread which I may be writing when I get back from holiday on Tuesday

 

With all that having been said, lets start with Terra's official post, i'll colour code what I am referring to in the quote and my responses below

7 hours ago, Terra said:

Needless to say, every person has an individual opinion on the matter, but what follows is the… consensus… reached by staff.

McDankus' Fiasco - Official Staff Stance

The individual known as McDankus, player behind the character "Dragor Bloodfury", Warlord of the Doldrums Horde, has been banned from the server for three months, after which he can appeal to be unbanned, and will be talked to, to see if he has reflected upon the actions which brought this unto himself.

Next, we will review parts of the rules which he has broken. These all can be found in the proper post under "Server Information", in the forums, under the name of "Rules and Regulations", though we will do so by going to the end of it, where it directly states "Do's and Don'ts", in order to prevent what may constitute as different "headcanons", or way to perceive things.

  • "Be respectful to one another".
  • "Do not cross OOC and IC"
  • "Do not exacerbate OOC Drama or willfully start it"
  • "Keep discussion civil"

Now, to breach these points all at one, if we may, instead of going at them one by one. McDankus first expressed his doubts about Halfpoint Haven having more than 100+ NPCs. He pressed for an OOC clarification, at which point Elle stated classic catchphrases such as "You are not owed an OOC explanation." or "If you don't like it, there's an uninstall button."

After this, the discussion kept getting less and less civil (With elements being hostile towards non-staff that was using the entire topic to joke about, even) , so Elle issued a warning: "Stop the topic, or you will be banned for 72h". At this point one/some of the elements decided to, in fact, log out and cool down. Dankus, however, tried to keep talking about it, and was therefore banned for 72h from the game, so he could cool off.

 

Then, instead of deciding to leave for a while to calm himself, he continued to try to argue the thing on Discord. While I can not, as the time of writing this, recall exactly what transpired, he ended up kicked/banned from Discord too, without following the proper punishment procedure. By this point, -I- believe he was still on a 72h ban.

After being kicked out of Discord, however, he brought it to PM's, directly calling Elle a "petulant child". He also sought after Varen in PM's, trying to argue the case.

While, of course, I am not exactly privy to the discussion carried out in these, that (those?) insults and general behaviour is what earned him a permanent ban.

 

Later, due to some elements of staff discussing the situation, the ban was reduced from perma to a 3 month ban which he can appeal at a later date, as it has been stated.

 

From an IC PoV, Dragor seems to be gone off to deal with some private errands. No one knows where to, or for how long. Those with events/storylines/interactions pertaining to Dragor Bloodfury are greatly encouraged to contact the Keepers and try to work a solution, as they are innocents and should not suffer because of the ban.

 

I do hope you can forgive me for not being clearer, as I have written this in the middle of class, and thus can not make use of my full resources to dig up specific quotes and information.

Hopefully, when I get internet again I will be able to update the post and make it better. When I do so, I will make a post further below where I will also explain -what- I have updated.

First right off the bat we have Elle being incredibly antagonistic and this is by far from the first time he has done such either by being directly abrasive towards staff or simply passive aggressive / carefree about genuine qualms and issues with the server. Not only is this in itself in violation of the 'be respectful of each other' ethos / rule but frankly its a poor way to run a D&D campaign let alone a server with many more people. If anything this reinforces the attitude that the server is for a small closed circle of friends and that anyone else who is present is simply an inconvenience.

 

The issue with this particular point is rather clear cut with Frankus messaging Elle in private messages:

"Be respectful. At all times. This is not optional. Show respect to your fellow players, regardless of their faction or affiliation. We are all playing this game to enjoy it, and being rude or disrespectful to another player does not enhance anyone's enjoyment. If it enhances your own enjoyment, you undoubtedly do not belong on this server. Being respectful is easy enough if you think about it. Even players that you dislike or seem unable to get along with can be treated with respect. When all else fails, the ignore filter is in place for a reason." - UNKNOWN SHORES RULES

This rule is quite clear cut and simple. If Frankus was being abrasive in a private message: ignore him? It's really not that difficult to block someone on discord or even ignore someone in-game which is not against the rules contrary to what many seem to be under the delusion of. So for this to be the primary reason for the ban is frankly absurd and shows that rather than deal with the problem this is a case of a revenge ban for something harkening back quite a long time, it is quite clear that both Varen and Elle have members of the community they have no time for and consider pests regardless of what they do / don't bring to the community.

 

It is worth pointing out on this particular issue that this decision came after it came to my attention that the same permanant ban was also being considered for myself especially considering i've had no official warnings logged or being informed of except for the point where I was banned from discord for disrespectful language.

The actual quote I got off the member of staff (i'll let you point the dots together here) is:

U9auSTx.jpg

I know, this isn't about me, this is about Dankus' ban. But Dankus' ban, problematic though it is, is simply a symptom of a much larger disease currently lurking on Unknown Shores and manifests itself in the following attitudes:

"Our way or the highway"

"If you don't like it there's an uninstall button"

It is highly hypocritical for members of staff to demand respect from a playerbase whilst it is unable to grant that very same respect back. And these aren't just isolated cases. For a community that has been around as long as this one, a lot of the -same- issues come up that frankly aren't looked into or solved but rather the names are replaced. Do we start calling Elle 'Zarquon'?

The sneakyness as well is highly questionable. I've been considered for a permanant ban on the basis that allegedly five people have contacted Varen complaining that myself and Dankus returned to the server following our hiatus. If you don't want memes made about you then stop doing absurd petty stuff like this which would send IMGUR going crazy with the amount of shoppable memes from this sort of material.

 

 

6 hours ago, Greg said:

Still though 3 months is too long, that completely ostracizes Dankus from the community, which he has very much positively contributed to.

And then making him beg, after those three months... Weak. 

It may come as a surprise to some but I don't actually think Dankus should be unbanned.

What he did was daft, in violation of the rules and should be punished. But that's what we all saw and witnessed and not this magical backlog of issues that either weren't logged, cannot be proven or are completely arbitrarily conjured from fictional mindsets.

I'd honestly say a 5-12 day ban for it and increasing that for repeated offenses and it culminating in a 3-strikes-and-you're-out.

The begging afterwards for an apology and a "Yes I know I did wrong" smacks of primary school (or elementary school for some people) attitudes to enforcing power roles. There's absolutely no need for this other than to fuel egos from the demanding party.

 

5 hours ago, Greg said:

I was taught to always treat others, as you yourself would like to be treated. It's a pretty common lesson in fact, I imagine Elle was taught it too. 

"You are not owed an OOC explanation." or "If you don't like it, there's an uninstall button." 

That is a disrespect shown by Elle to Dankus, in my opinion at this moment Elle welcomed any disrespect (probably knowingly.. I mean Bloodfury it's in the title.) that came from Dankus.

This is not a good enough reason for a permanent ban.

Agreed. As mentioned previously respect is a two way road not a one-way highstreet.

 

 

5 hours ago, sander said:

The only thing I don't like is that there weren't any proper warnings given. Yes people can be dicks, but why let things escalate to the point of a 3 month ban straight away? Warnings are the perfect solution to give people a chance to change their behaviour, plus you have an actual history you can point to when dishing out the serious ban hammer. And I'm talking actual official warnings that are logged with screenshots on a person's file (preferably a publically accessible file), not a single message in an OOC chat in-game. 

It would avoid big drama, either because the offending player changes their behaviour or because they keep pushing and get banned, at which point you can say "well we did warn him, just look at these logs; he already had 3 chances to change but didn't". Nobody would kick up a fuss about that, it would seem fair. Instead you're left with this; where a big dramatic statement has to be made and players are up in arms with disagreement.

Honestly I would suggest letting Frankie return with a final strike official warning; if he gets rude again he's out. 

Agree wholeheartedly. This harks back to the issue of things not being logged and there being no paper trail. Honestly I would even suggest a publically viewable 'WALL OF SHAME' on the forums where warnings and bans are issued along with the reasons / evidence for just to players are aware and all the cloak-and-dagger nonsense can be avoided. Transparency works wonders.

 

 

3 hours ago, Spoon said:

Firstly let me say that I was not online that night but I've been following what has happened. 

It seems to me like both parties are to blame, statements like "there's an uninstall button." sound really unprofessional and are bound to provoke players. It's easy to bait people into a heated discussion and then wave your authority to depict them however you want. Imo both parties acted irrationally and the permanent ban seems part of those irrational decisions.
I've also known Dragor for a while and he was the reason I joined this server so I'm trying not to be biased. But while looking into this debacle I noticed he's been on Shores for some time and I feel it's unproductive and a waste to over-punish a frequent RPer (and a good one at that) for such an indecisive situation. 

 

For a server with such a low and dwindling population its not only doing very little advertising but its also not very keen on keeping or retaining players because, and this is shouted from the rooftops on an almost daily basis, those who manage and run are happy and confident with what is happening in their own circle(s) and couldn't care less what is happening outside.

 

 

I'd like to just wrap this short essay with the following.

Yes a server has its problems, that in itself isn't a problem. There's an old saying:

 

"Getting stuck is ok. Staying stuck isn't"

And whilst Unknown Shores is not Epilogue, Prologue, Tales, Wake or any of the other servers that came before it carries not only the same mantle but also more or less the same community.

And time and time again the same issues crop up with different people under different usernames but we consistently fail to learn and adapt to past mistakes.

 

Here is a small challange not just to staff but players as well:

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dvzA9w__5PKEBcrfPdEOPZkqOswtSDz-0pyq1e_UKWk/edit

 

This link is to a guide I compiled over 6 months ago, half a year. A lot has changed in terms of the land we RP in, factions rise and fall but problems remain the same. Have a look down that list and take a note of what problems remain and what problems have been solved, it'll be somewhat of an eye opener.

I love this place, I really do, but it needs to see some change before it goes down the same route as past servers.

Edited by Dascombe
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Addendum: top job to Lang for doing the survey, it's good to see someone taking a proactive stance towards community engagement and gauging the attitude towards how the server's ran, I feel like someone's carried the mantle of that document I linked above!

Edited by Dascombe
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7 hours ago, Terra said:

"You are not owed an OOC explanation." or "If you don't like it, there's an uninstall button."

This sort of response is unbecoming of any, quite frankly, any staff member. I have personally been witness to a few comments similar to the above and, honestly, it's quite a rude stance to make. Even if players aren't "owed an OOC explanation" it doesn't sow the seeds of a good community by, essentially, telling people debating a topic to 'piss off' if they don't like the answer they were given. It's things like that which lead to discontent amongst the playerbase and will, in the present and in the future, cause players to leave and not give the server a second glance.

In all fairness, McDankus may have come off strong in what ever conversations were had behind closed doors, and a temporary ban may have been necessary. However.. I will follow that statement with the following: Giving a player a ban from discord and the server without following the guidelines, and rules, that you yourselves created gives off a corrupted impression upon the players.

Personally, I do believe that a three-month ban for a squabble that, from my point of view, happens almost on the daily in Discord leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Just because someone disagrees with you does not constitute banning any player for any amount of time. If this argument had involved two players, and not the Keeper who essentially runs Haven as their own paradise, I am positive that the discussion would have ended with a much different outcome and, perhaps, both participants would have had simply agreed to disagree. Perhaps if bans were not thrown around so easily, just because one didn't want to discuss it any further, then the situation may have not escalated to this outcome.

Ah, well, my own two-cents. Cheers.

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Frankly, I've been curious about the massive and sudden expansion of a number of different NPC and player factions. And to ask about that is pretty reasonable, because it helps keep staff accountable, and players connected and feeling like they as well as everyone else play by the rules. Telling people to 'politely' fuck off because you don't want to explain yourself, is how a child would act.

At most I would have given Dankus a temp chat ban for a while and a light warning, tops, but even that seems to be stretching it a little in my eyes when nothing is done to the other side of the issue.

Edited by Skippy
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I guess I'll chime in as well, even though I would prefer not to, since what I am about to say will further cement me never being accepted back into a staff position. But fuck it, I prefer honesty over asslicking.

 

In my eyes there is only one reason why Dankus got slapped a 3 months ban, and I already told him that:  It's because he can be so fucking annoying. As a person.

Not saying that he is a bad guy. He is not. I can think of so many other people that are downright cunts or malicious, little rats. He is not one of those. The only crime he is commiting is a combination of three things:  He is honest, he is loud and he is persistent. Three qualities that can prove to be very nervewrecking for people on staff, especially if staff are very convinced of their "highway".

 

I so much want to leave Varen out of this whole discussion, because we all have to agree upon that Varen is the pillar that keeps US standing and is, in my eyes, largely not to blame for a lot of the things that go wrong here. He is a programmer with the right ideas, but he does not have the nerves, the patience or the expressiveness to truly deliver these ideas in a way that everyone can acknowledge. If you ask me, he is simply in over his head with running this show all by himself and the people that are closest to him right now, mostly referring to Elle here, are making it worse.

 

I don't want to say Elle is a bad person. But it is easy to say "If you don't like it, leave" when you live in the castle and the rest live in the stables.

I was living in that castle once. Never did I argue for a bigger bed for myself, or more silver on my paycheck. I would like to believe that I stayed "humble" in my staff position. But very politely telling community members to "leave if they don't like your paradise"? I would not say that's humble. I consider that bad attitude.

When I applied to be a staff member again a few weeks ago, I was declined and later told that nobody wanted me back on staff. Because I had a "bad attitude". Apparently, staff is no longer hired based on competence, but rather on how well they "fit into the clique". Because if a few snarky comments I made are reason enough to keep me out, then how about you look at ya'll in the mirror? I shouldn't generalize like this, it's mostly just Elle to be honest: Someone that keeps alienating player after player off of this server, since they quite frankly can't tolerate the attitude they are getting from him any more. And that's the person telling me I won't get back on staff because of my "bad attitude"?

If you guys want to turn this server into your own little paradise where you foster community members that fit well into your own little clique, while alienating everyone that has rebellious thoughts, then yeah... keep Dragor banned.

If not, maybe let someone handle bans and other community-related stuff who has a tougher skin, more tolerance and more understanding for other people's feelings, someone that is good at listening and is more compassionate. Someone that doesn't sperg out into arrogant "don't like it, leave" responses because some guy is disagreeing with him.

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7 minutes ago, foogleman said:

If not, maybe let someone handle bans and other community-related stuff who has a tougher skin, more tolerance and more understanding for other people's feelings, someone that is good at listening and is more compassionate. Someone that doesn't sperg out into arrogant "don't like it, leave" responses because some guy is disagreeing with him.

We had someone that did.

That person wasn't taken seriously in their duties (and we're not talking exclusively  by players)

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I wasn't going to comment at all to avoid any issues, but I felt having a statement from the person who was banned matters at this point.

Looking back at the whole situation with the ban, It could have been handled much better. On my end, perhaps my vulgar tone of language could have been reduced a bit, but on another note the way I speak is just how I speak unfortunately. Many here will know I use such colorful language often to emphasize points, sometimes a bit too much. The situation started after speaking to Lang about the NPC prices system, something which at the time myself and a few individuals disliked for a number of reasons (which currently aren't the focus of this thread.) This divulged into a debate about how a certain NPC faction (not too important to the topic) would have to pay for all of their NPCs in conjunction with the system, due to a number of IC/OOC angles. 

The situation escalated when a number of people chipped into the discussion, and some tensions were high when shitty comments were made on either side. What fueled the fire in my belly was the general attitude of a certain Head Keeper, who's response to our critique was essentially "if you don't like the way things are, uninstall". For me, this coming from the Head Keeper, was immensely insulting and such an immature attitude to have. A server with such a small playerbase should not have this as their ultimatum, and instead should be looking at working with the players rather than against them, something I see often than not.

Admittedly I made a comment or two that maybe shouldn't have been said, but apologized later on in LFRP for it. After the Head Keeper slapped a 72 Hour Ban warning in LFRP for anyone continuing the discussion (something I found a bit over the top and seemed to be an act of "I can do this because I can") I decided to poke the subject still, more so annoyed that the Head Keeper was behaving in such a manner. It really speaks volumes when the curator has to warn the Head Keeper on their behavior towards players, publicly, in LFRP. 

I was banned of course for 72 hours, I still felt that was a bit much especially over a verbal spat. The discussion itself did not deserve a 72 hour ban warning, and staff shouldn't be trying to force bans on people in an effort to silence their disagreement with a system. Everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless of who they are or what people think of them, and to behave in such a manner is downright wrong. As Skippy said, it's reasonable to ask OOCly how NPC or Player Factions are operating in conjunction to systems, to ensure there is transparency and also consistency towards all groups. 

I'll take responsibility for making a small ruckus in discord post-ban, although after a few minutes I stopped talking and let the discussion flow after some people were angry I was banned. Eventually it lead to Elle stating "I know how to stop this" and abruptly banned me from the discord. No warnings, no one pulling me to the side and going "cool your shit man", just a straight up ban. Should I have called Elle a petulant child in PMs? Probably not. But if the chat history of that was to be shown here, people would see that Elle had more than enough time to block me. Instead, they responded with:

"No. I'm just not dealing with shitting attitudes. Please, insult me again, because I don't have to allow you on shores.

It isn't your right. You don't get to act like a shithead and keep playing here like it's acceptable." Elle, Head Keeper, 05/16/19

And there lies the problem, in red highlight. That clear display of goading because someone -CAN- stop someone from coming on shores. I'll be honest, I don't like Elle, but I probably shouldn't have insulted them the way that I did. But at the same time I must stress, like others can agree, this is has not come without similar behavior on Elles end. There was a quite sensible issue we had a week prior, where Elle contacted me about not taking the piss out of Haven as much being the Argent Dawn 2.0 etc. I complied, politely explained my reasoning behind it and expressed it was a joke, however I would tone it down. We did not have any issues since.

Moving on though, as this is not all about Elle (nor is it a personal attack on them), I look at how Varen handled the situation. I reached out to Varen, as I believed Elle had been a bit heavy handed in the dishing out of bans. Admittedly some of my language and the way I came across as quite angered, hostile, something I should have toned down. But after being treated in such a way by another staff member, it's sure to make your blood boil. A few minutes into the discussion Varen stated that I, personally, was making people not want to play. I asked for validation, even though I may have come across a bit strong. Of course Varen tried his best to handle the situation, stating that it wasn't an issue with staff attitude as I had claimed, but an issue with my attitude. Perhaps to some degree, he was correct.

However, the next thing he said was something that really did make me feel unwelcome, and made me believe this ban was truly unjust:

"The point is we've had several players quit the server over people being dramatic as you've been, and ever since you, dascombe & co of people who acted in that manner on a daily basis left, we had a fine relationship with players.

And that's what I'm looking at right now. People who tell me "McDankus and dascombe are back?""

In my frustration, I challenged the statement, as it seemed to me that this amount of players were just a small clique or bubble together. Varen claimed it was five people who openly spoke to him about their dislike for myself, dasc and others. He also claimed "the rest just doesn't want to deal with the drama". This would make me believe that a good majority of the server were against myself and dasc, and it sounded like perhaps a reason for the ban was to get rid of myself to allow these players who had quit to return? The further I delved more into the discussion, the more it sounded like this was server politics.

This was further reinforced by another statement Varen made:

"Who's more important, you or 5 people?"

This quickly became an issue where it was clear that this miraculous group of 5 players were having a bias impact on Varens decision making. I could understand if I was warned about this behavior before, however since the ban no staff have approached me about warning me for -anything- other than Elle with the Haven stuff a week ago. There has been no documented warnings of what I have done, and if there are, staff clearly are choosing not to disclose this for whatever reason, even to me. So how can I improve and stop people from leaving, when staff are not telling me?

This raised the question now that, if 5 players disliked a staff member, should they be treated with the same sort of bias when handling disciplinary issues with them?

Now, Varen stressed that the bar they want to uphold is (in his words) "Sensitive", and even confirmed that the environment should be PC, which apparently is stated in the rules. The issue, so Varen went on to say, was this:

"The dripping sarcasm, the outright insults towards all these things we've been working on for ages now, that's the problem."

Many people here should know that such sarcastic attitudes can be seen from many others players, some of which go relatively unpunished as well. It seems to me that a few individuals are normally targeted because, as others above have identified, they don't fit the bill for the clique that is being fleshed out in this server. This is further proven and reinforced by another line Varen said:

"You change the way you speak or leave"

This has slowly started to become an environment where someone has to tiptoe around people because of their feelings, no matter the discussion. Further in the discussion, Varen stated that insulting the server systems is a personal attack on the work that people have done. If this is the case, and I say "Oh, the RPG Combat system is shit", does that mean I am to be punished for a personal attack? The other problem I see here is the emphasis on the rules, as if they are the 10 Commandments. The problem with that is certain members of staff seem to be getting away with not showing respect to their fellow player. Respect is earned both ways, not given through right of attaining a position of power or authority. 

I will be 100% honest and state this is not the entirety of the conversation myself and Varen had. I am willing to clarify anything or any points, or speak to people privately about anything that might have been missed and said on my side and Varens. But these are key points that contribute to the situation that you, the players, should know given staff have only given their side of the banning. All statements above, highlighted or not, can be proved and justified, but I will not do so publicly since I don't want to make this thread a screenshot dump.

Moving on, this whole fiasco has outlined major issues in Unknown Shores. Firstly, the relationship between player and staff. There's been quite a divide as far as this goes. You tend to boil down this into two groups:

1) The people who are liked by staff (considered to be in the clique as we know)

2) The people who are disliked/tolerated by staff (the ones who are told "change or leave" essentially)

This causes major friction because the latter group are often people who, like myself, are honest and very vocal when we need to. This is mainly because as roleplayers, we are passionate about what we do, and when we see an issue you're damn right we point it out. I'll admit I could do it a lot less crudely, but I will stress the fact it is who I am. It sadly won't change, I can only try to be somewhat politer, but it won't change the fact I'm a blunt, honest and sometimes crude person. 

People lack faith in staff, primarily because of general hypocrisy. We've seen examples of staff members break rules and get off with no punishment at all, and yet when players have similar issues, the problems get dropped on them like a ton of bricks. I understand the "my way or the high way" attitude, staff have a vision they want to deliver, but when your player ultimatums are "don't like it, leave", especially for such a low pop server, you're really asking for trouble.  

The method of punishment is also, at best, ludicrous. From what I am told, there is a warning system in place on discord, but rarely ever have I seen a warning system implemented for server disputes. Throwing a 72 hour ban warning, especially over a verbal dispute, isn't a warning process. It's an effort for someone to silence a group of people because they don't like what they're hearing, and that's that. During this entire process, other members have staff have told me firstly I've been considered for a perma over called Elle a petulant child. Additional questions have come to light over metagaming and allegedly spreading false lies and hateful rumors OOCly, yet little proof has come to light to say I have and should be judged for it?

Regardless of that however, it is clear staff aren't properly executing their disciplinary procedures. I, for one, have not received any official warning points or cooldown periods for -any- of the issues I'm being banned for. Metagaming? No warning. False lies and rumors? No warning. Making players quit? No warning. Yet when something happens like this, staff (Mainly Varen and Elle) decide the best action is to find as many faults to me as they can to justify giving me a perma ban with a 3 month wait to appeal? That's not punishment. That's witch-hunting and considering what's been mentioned above about peoples opinions on myself, I'd go as far as to say it's bias to a degree.

I'm not saying I'm innocent. I've mentioned multiple times I should have handled things better and not in the ways I did. I apologize to Elle for the insult to them directly, and also to Varen for any sort of attitude I had at the time. This is not to say I'm begging to return. I deserve a sentence of sorts but anything more than 2 weeks for me is silly. I can't say I can change 100% to your "ideal" community member, but what I can do is make steps to avoid drama. That is why, should staff consider lifting my punishment, I would be fine to remove myself from OOC channels. Retain a discord rank where I can make tickets and have no input in OOC stuff, and remain out of LFRP or OOC in-game channels.

I do apologize for the long, daunting post, but when I got into this I was told to be honest and speak my mind and how I feel. I don't want a giant drama fest, and I sure as shit don't want the server to struggle over this. But one thing I will not accept is a one sided argument without the facts from all sides being lay bare for the community to see. They deserve to know how staff are handling this as much as anyone here. No one is free to believe what I put, or support me. None of that matters, but everyone is welcome to come up with their own conclusions. 

I just want to RP, and bring Horde RP here, as I always prefer to do. Lok'tar!

 

 

 

Edited by McDankus
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Thanks for all the sober arguments and replies, it is clear that this is a community that has an interest in transparency and fairness, and as a trial staff member I hope I can help contribute to this even further if I am fully accepted into staff. I hope my colleagues will look into replying here as well, even though this is a case that has burdened some of them greatly, due to work overload and other personal issues. 
Thank you all for taking an interest in Unknown Shores and how we run this community together. 
 

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The fact that staff actually implemented the permanent ban for something so minuscule in the first place is pretty contemptible, though reducing it to three months is ever-so-slightly better.

Edited by Ingired

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If the guy was banned for being toxic, but was being a contributing role player - then why don't you just ban him from the forums and discord, but keep him able to remain with his character in game and IC. If he misbehaves in game as well, you can always ban him from there as well.

We recently had a discussion about character killing in discord. If you can make a "sacrifice" by not killing a character at your feet to hopefully contribute to a better narrative, why not give the guy a chance to do the same if he only broke ooc common courtesy rules and not role playing fundamentals?

 

EDIT: I read posts above about people leaving over the toxicity of people like McDankus and Dascombe.

I find that hard to believe, I'm not sure if I remember McDankus, but Dascombe is one of the best role players I have met during my time, and he always brings a hella lot of reasoning and constructive criticism during an argument/debate.

Edited by SCANDALOUZ
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So this thread has been up for more than 72 hrs, when can we expect a staff response to this or is it the game of be quiet and hope it simply glosses over? 

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Afaik Elle has internet problems and can't be here for this whole discussion. It's unfortunate, but we should wait until Elle can get a word in, too.

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I will just add my two cents on the matter as I see it's kicked up some dust. While I would be inclined to agree that McDaknus's behavior was inappropriate, I would like to point out that the Head Keeper's response on the whole matter is just downright unacceptable. "My way or the high way" is just such self-entitled, venomous and childish that is beyond my words. Recently I quit my position as a Keeper on the staff, and I feel this is a great opportunity to shed some light on the situation, as it has some similarities to what happened here.

 

I made an inquiry with Elle about a certain thing I wished to do with the Zandalari trolls, mainly use the newly accessible .wmo objects to give them a ship, as per their lore they arrived into the Doldrums with a fleet, and Zandalari are known as strong sailors. Elle rejected it, and when I supplied logical arguments as to why he should give it some consideration I was given the reply "You heard me, no." At this point in the conversation it broke down to the lack of respect Elle has when speaking to people. Being the Head Keeper does not mean you get to talk however you want, or be uncivil in a conversation that is about...well anything really. Bottom line I told Elle that I will not be able to work with him if he can not speak respectfully and not treat me like an underling. The response I got was "There's the door" so I simply left.

 

The point I am trying to make here is that both incidents reveal a much deeper rooted problem. We've all seen the fate of servers where the gap between staff and the players is too wide. I don't believe the stance "My way of the high way" should be acceptable from any staff member, especially one of high rank. It sends a very bad message about the server as a whole and the staff team that you represent. The whole situation above is too complicated for me to get into and I feel it has already been chewed out enough. I simply believe that the root of this problem is one individual's inflated ego and that this entire situation could have been resolved much differently without pointless dust kicked up everywhere. 

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Whilst I understand Elle has internet issues, (not sure how they've managed to contact staff about it if they can't chip in for this situation), I still don't understand why it's taken staff so long to come up with a solid response to the criticism in this thread. All posts hold valid points, not just about my ban, but the situation regarding the server and the relationship between player and staff. Even now I'm seeing incidents crop up of a similar nature to staff members showing clear lack of respect for players in OOC channels, so to the people it appears like these issues aren't being addressed.

Staff may see this and think "but we are taking it on board", the problem is that the staff are not -PUBLICLY- telling people, in statements or otherwise, what steps are being taken to solve the issue at hand. It's been a week and a half now since I've been banned, and enough discussion has been made on this thread to warrant a cohesive, sensible response from staff to address each problem, and how they plan to fix it and move forward.

Because what I'm seeing right now, is as others have pointed out, a hesitation to address the issues at hand. I get that again, Elle has issues with their connection, but I see no reason why Varen can give his two-cents given he is technically running things at the moment. And even if Varen is unable to comment for whatever reason, isn't that the job of the curator? To act as an ambassador/liaison between players and higher staff? If he's not being used to mediate stuff like this, then why have him at all? That's not me saying his position is useless, it's just useless if staff aren't utilizing him fully for stuff like this.

I'm in no position to demand, nor is this a demand, but I don't expect to go more than 2 weeks from being banned before we get a proper staff response on this situation. Even during the whole ban scenario, staff should have had their reasons for the ban nailed down already, but it seems even now that's up in the air which raises the question was this ban made out irrational staff behavior or not? Additionally they should have been more than ready by now to give any form of staff response, so we'll see how long it takes. It doesn't change the fact that with each day that passes I'm loosing time to be on the server. I've already admitted I deserved a ban, but not this long for something so minuscule. And even if I've been banned for other stuff I've apparently done, where's the exact reasons and where's the proof? Because none of that was mentioned in Terras original statement. 

Trying to be as sensible as possible with this reply, so I do apologize if some of it has come across in the wrong manner. 

Edited by McDankus
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This is still being discussed! I assure everyone it has not just been forgotten about!

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